Leading a God-Ordained Marriage God’s way
Transcript:
Pastor Priji: Marriage is sometimes a difficult topic to speak on and yet God has made it so mysteriously beautiful that it will take an entire lifetime of working with each other and serving each other and loving each other to get a glimpse of what God had in mind when He created man and woman and joined them together. I want to know from your perspective pastors; the Bible says in Ephesians 5:21 that we need to submit to one another out of reverence for Jesus. Now how do we translate that in our lives and how do we practice it? From your learning how do we apply it in our lives? Is it easy? What is it that stops us from submitting to one another and how does submission to one another really help our growth together as a married couple?
Pastor Derrick: I think submission is one of the most difficult and most misunderstood concepts when you talk about it in any aspect whether it be marriage or work or even at home. But when it comes to marriage I believe that Ephesians 5:21 says to submit to one another in reverence for Christ; I think that is the key for pastor Kim and myself. It is the reverence for Christ that makes us submit. so when you are submitted to God it becomes very easy to submit to each other. The Bible says wives submit to their husband’s as you do to the Lord for the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church; His body of which He is the Saviour. Right now there is a body that does not submit to the head and you can see that a lot in marriages today and even if the husband is the head the body is not willing to submit. Even if Christ is the head the body is not willing to submit. So if you look at this closely it is the husband not submitting to the Lord first as a leader but when he submits to the Lord it becomes very easy for the wife to submit because then the nature of the Lord begins to flow through the husband and that just begins to be a blessing in your families in your relationships in your children.
Pastor Kim: Yes I completely agree with Derrick. If you just look into this portion were we ready that submit to one another, this will become a rule book for you, you’re going to be looking for what to do and what not to do. But this picture changes when you bring God in the midst and that is the key for me. When you live a life of surrender, when you submit yourself to God everything becomes an overflow then it’s not something that you need somebody to teach you how a wife should submit to her husband or how you submit to one another because it becomes your overflow from your surrender to God. When I look into the last three chapters of Ephesians; Paul is giving instructions to the church in Ephesus but I like the way he begins the book where he talks about identity and says that it is my prayer that you know Him more. When you know God more, your level of surrender is going to increase, your level of submission is going to increase so I really like the way Paul put it. He started by saying when you know the Lord more, you surrender more and then you don’t need an interview to know the solutions because the Holy Spirit within you will work on you and change you and make you the way He wants you to be.
Pastor Priji: That is so powerful when we allow God to take His central position, the place of authority in our relationships and then becomes so easy. Like you said pastor Kim when we just take that part to submit it may look hard or religious or challenging but when we place God in the picture like what Pastor Derrick said when a man submits to Christ first it becomes easier for him to love his wife and for his wife to submit to him. Now I understand when God created marriage His purpose was not just that we don’t fight, it was not just that we don’t hurt each other it was much much greater than that. In Genesis 2 and other multiple places, He said “The two shall become one” so sometimes achieving that oneness, achieving that unity can be and look challenging. I like to know from both of your experiences how is it that both of you work together and work through your differences and your challenges and even maybe personality differences and the different ways of dealing with a particular problem but how do work through all of this so that you can achieve oneness in marriage?
Pastor Derrick: Pastor Kim and myself always keep telling the church that we are so different from each other and when God bought us together, He did it for a plan and a greater one than ourselves. So the purpose of marriage is not you, you must understand that. If you think it is you then you have already lost the battle for there is a greater purpose, and that purpose is of God. He wants to use marriage to be a blessing to many families and there is immense power in marriage and that is why the enemy attacks marriages. One of the best examples of how we work came as a revelation to me is when we understand that once we give our life to Jesus everything we get is a gift. So you look at everything salvation is a gift, Holiness is a gift, He says you are justified so justification is a gift, gifts of the Holy Spirit are gifts and the Holy Spirit Himself is a gift. So the life after coming to know Jesus is a matter of how you steward gifts. God gives us gifts at regular intervals and the way you steward it is the way you move up. This is how God showed it to me when we were young and got married and we shared and had our differences there was one day where I could not understand how to deal with something and walked out of the house and I went out running and talked to God and said God you’ve given me this gift and this gift is behaving this way and the gift is saying this and that and it was as clear as the person standing next to me and talking and the Lord spoke and He said “Son, this is my gift to you and when I heard that you know James 1 came up that ”every good and perfect thing comes from the Father of heavenly light and in whom there is no change…“ then I realized that this is not a person I got married to from some family, this was parcelled, gift-wrapped, blessed, nurtured, beautifully bought up in God’s garden and now handed over to me. When I received that revelation that this is God’s gift and not my wife and a gift from my Father in heaven to me my old ways of resolving things changed so now while we still have differences it is never something we cannot overcome because I am handling a gift from my Father. That brought a whole new ball game. Now I cannot get angry or upset, rather I’m rarely upset about something but I cannot hold it why because this is my Father’s gift to me and how I steward it and how I nurture and bless this gift to grow into a greater blessing is what God is requested of me.
Pastor Priji: So often we take our relationships for granted and that is why we say whatever we feel like and do whatever we feel like and years later those words and actions end up creating deep wounds and we begin to value the person as somebody that God has blessed us with the perspective changes even when there are differences. What is both of your experience of your marriage and counselling other marriages and leading a church, my question is what is a bigger threat to marriage is it external factors or internal factors? External factors include loss of a job or a health issue or people/in-laws and internal factors being things like your heart not being in the right place or insecurities or secret sins or there are things that you have not dealt with on your own like it is not things others can fix. What do you think is a bigger threat to marriage the external or internal factors? Why?
Pastor Kim: I think it is the internal factors because we know that the word of God says that it is the heart that is deceptive and God says very clearly above everything, above the external factors, “guard your heart”. So I believe that it is the internal factors that hold the key because that is where your root is that is where your foundation is so if your foundation is strong and storms may come but you will stand. When your internal factors are in tandem with each other and internally you both are strong and together then you can fight the external battles together, it will become like a joy to see the hand of God. There’s a grace that will come when internally your heart are one, your vision is one then the external factors won’t matter as long as your foundation is strong it will not get uprooted.
Pastor Derrick: It is so true that internal is the most important I remember my father telling me “Derrick no money, no house all okay; but good wife, a smiling wife, a happy family even if your living in a 4×4 room it is much better. Even the Bible has a lot to say about that in Proverbs 29, it is better to live in a corner of the housetop than to share a house with a quarrelsome wife. So as pastor Kim said when the internal is strong no matter what it won’t shake us, and I have seen it in our lives pastor. When we got married and came home we didn’t have a house and we took one on rent and our wedding night all we had was a bedsheet and two pillows on the ground and that was it but we were so happy because we found the partners that God had given to each of us. We were fully calibrated and equally yolked and that is so precious. Most of the problems are the equilibrium, unequal yolk, wrong calibration, people coming in with their baggage, not being healed before you enter a marriage that is so powerful. Most people are waiting to jump and get married but have you ever stopped to think ”am I ready to get married” because the minute you ask that question and you allow our great coach and comforter the Holy Spirit to work on you then He prepares you for marriage. I remember before I got married I asked the Lord this saying I want You to work on my life because I had been through some relationships earlier and they were all messed up and said God I’m not willing to get married to anyone until you heal me completely. I want to be healed completely so that the wife that I get will be serving you without a blip or a hiccup. We shouldn’t be wasting our time thinking about problems we have about you about me what she said/he said but to unite us to destroy the other kingdom. We should not waste our time because marriage is not about just stop fighting for it is not the purpose of marriage. The purpose of marriage is to bring the kingdom of heaven on earth and through your family, nations start to know God because they see God in your life. So if we can ask this question “are we ready?” and we can allow the Holy Spirit to do His work before we jump because if we jump in before preparing we will learn it the hard way. That is where it gets messy. So the idea is if you have not married use this counsel, and if you are married remember it’s not the external factors. If you have less money, eat less, drive less like how we have started but we were most happy that we are a gift given by God to each other and we treasure it.
Pastor Kim: I think one of the common mistakes that married people make is that they think marriage is a complete picture but what we need to realize is that marriage is just part of the bigger picture it is not the complete picture. The bigger picture is your vision for life, it is your call for life. If we look at the bigger picture and start analyzing everything that we go through and we ask ourselves the question “what’s at stake?” we realize what are the petty and small issues that we are fighting on whereas there’s something bigger at stake so its not about how many clubhouses we own together or churches we have but rather what has God placed for your marriage. For us personally, that has been the glue that has kept us together because that has actually been what bought us together in fact. When Pastor Derrick and I first met each other we did not like each other and I remember going to my friends and I cried and my friends asked me why I was crying even though nothing was fixed nor finalised and it was our first meeting and I responded saying I don’t like this boy but I know I have to marry him. Somewhere in my heart I knew this was the man for me and the language he spoke was the language of God and that is what caught my attention. A prayer that both of us had is that we get someone who loves Jesus more than anything else. I knew that he was faking it or just blurting out scriptures but it was something that was coming out from his closeness with God and that is what really touched me. That is one of the key factors that has kept us together. I think it is different for all marriages and everyone is different but for us the vision that we had we both are running on the same track so in the process we fall or make mistakes or even get hit it still is a joy that we are part of that bigger vision and we are moving in the same direction and that is something that has kept us one.
Pastor Priji: That’s beautiful! A word of advice to all of us and to those who aren’t married and yet to be married is marriage is not the bigger picture but the call over your life which is the bigger picture. Aim for that and let marriage be a part of that and not the other way around. We try to fit everything else how we want it rather than us aligning to what God wants from our lives. that was such a beautiful lesson. Thank you Pastor Kim for that.
Pastor Kim: Just adding a little more as I do not want to miss out. This vision that we are talking about has to be from God. It’s not the vision that together as a couple you want to achieve this in life. It has to come out of the relationship with God. Otherwise, it is as good as making a tower of Babel you’ll have a vision, you’ll have unity but it will not click. On the other hand, we had someone like Noah who was willing to make the worlds largest ship at that time and why was there so much grace upon him as he was doing it was because he pleased God and in that process, God gave him a vision. If you are married and listening to this it doesn’t matter how long you’ve been married together but if you don’t have a vision can we encourage you to ask God for a vision for your marriage. Then when you know that you are in the will of God you’ll be one and experience great joy even if storms or trials come.
Pastor Derrick: Just one more thing to add as the Holy Spirit leads me, you asked which was the bigger threat to marriage whether it was finances or people etc. Today marriages are under a lot of pressure financially, people or peer pressure and this is where I want to speak to all of you. Never let your marriage be influenced by people’s opinions. We have seen so many marriages that have happened in a big way and they make it a big event and show everything and then after the marriage, they’re on loans and that is so sad. Remember that you want to live a married life debt-free you don’t want finance to become a pressure or want people’s expectations to be on you because you are starting a unit on your own. Make sure to never live for people because God has bought you together and God is the one whose going to build this house provided you come together and build His kingdom. Honestly, I have never looked at my finances because God has always increased them. After all, we have always put into His kingdom and the God we serve won’t let us outdo Him and He will make sure He outdoes you every time. Don’t let anyone pressurize you and remember you and your wife are a unit. Even if it is the smallest house that is not what should make you happy, rather be happy that God has given you a gift and that gift is forever, cherish that and make that work and everything will come into your life.
Pastor Priji: That’s beautiful. Many a time our pursuit is to make more money and make sure that we look good on our wedding day. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have a good career or make a good salary. What I am saying is that there is more preparation needed in the way we prepare our mind, our heart and ourselves in our personal lives and also prepare ourselves to be a blessing to our spouses. Pastor Kim and Derrick you’ve hit the nail right where it is necessary and if you could give a word or advice or encourage couples who are on the verge of giving up on their relationship especially married couples who are on the brink of getting separated and given up hope of anything changing in their marriage. What would be the one thing that you would tell them, how should they hold on and what should be their perspective have when they feel like everything is lost what would be your word of advice and also if you’d just pray over them and the couple’s who are listening to us today that would be a blessing.
Pastor Derrick: I would like to address this by reading the book of Malachi 2:13 “and he said another thing you do you flood the Lord’s altar with tears, you wrap and wail because He no longer pays attention to your offerings or accepts them with pleasure from your hands you ask why it is because the Lord is acting as a witness between you and the wife of your youth because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your marriage covenant has not the Lord made them one in flesh and spirit they are His” and here He answers the most critical question “why one? because He was seeking Godly offspring so guard yourself in your spirit and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. I hate divorce says the Lord God of Isreal and I hate man covering himself with violence as well as his garment.” So guard yourself in spirit and do not break faith with the wife God has given you. There are so many people suffering from hurt within marriages and my heart breaks with this. Women especially get hurt from relationships not that men don’t but it is more for the girls who then bring their baggage into marriage and question why this marriage is falling apart. Pastor Kim along with another youth from church has written a book that I would recommend all unmarried girls read this book. This book covers all aspects of marriage before you get into it and how it will help you process deep wounds before marriage. To address the question of how we can help the married people I would just bring you to one very important revelation in my life if you are a born again and I’m speaking to born again believers God has given you a coach and a mentor and a comforter that is the Holy Spirit. If you do not submit to that Spirit’s voice who is guiding you then even the covering that is over you will be a namesake. We are blessed to have our spiritual mentors and parents but God keeps reminding me that if you do not submit to the Spirit I have given you, you will just be an odd man even that covering will not make sense. We must submit to this coach cause a coach sits and watches you and He can see what you’re doing is wrong and He can see what you’re doing can hurt somebody and He is the one who will tell you not to do it. Pastor because He has coached me I have seen my wife in a way that no one could reveal her to me it had to be God. Now that I have received that revelation it is easy to submit it became the easiest thing because now I understood that the Holy Spirit showed me things that she would never have told me way back to why a person is a particular way or how they have been bought up or how you need to be sensitive to certain things and so I would encourage every one of you to remember that the Holy Spirit is very close to you. If you honour Him and hear Him, He will speak to you. Just as Moses said “wait here and I will go and listen to what the Lord says” from above the mercy seat between the cherubs so he told the people “wait here until I go listen” and I was trying to tell people that as long as you listen you will find God speaking but if your not the listening type you will only be speaking and you will not find God speaking. We must develop listening ears because we have a God who speaks.
Pastor Kim: If you are listening to this podcast and you are going through a bad phase in your marriage I would just say that get desperate. Desperation sometimes holds the key so you get desperate and pray and pray to say Lord change me not change my spouse but asking God to change yourself. Many of us especially women struggle in this area, we would argue among ourselves and I would keep on quoting this to Derrick saying “I come from this family and my dad had this issue and we had this background and that is why I behave the way I behave now give me time and it will take time for me to change”. He then one time said to me that I don’t belong to my Kumar family anymore for once you are a born-again your DNA is changed so we need to stop making that excuse. Yes everybody comes with a baggage of their pasts but when we are born-again in the kingdom of God we have a heavenly divine connection and our DNA is associated with that family there’s nothing impossible when you get desperate and you want your marriage to survive God will give you the grave and the ideas. We may read a lot on marriage but when it comes to practicality this is an area we struggle with. Recently I joined this badminton coaching and when I was in my school I used to play badminton and attended coaching for three or four months and that’s when I learnt the rules of the game and knew a few tricks of the game but now when I joined coaching my coach said “you know badminton but it is all in your head” then I realised that I know things in my head but because I have not exercised my muscles, because I was completely out of shape I was struggling. This is the case with many of us who are married we know a lot of things and we know scriptures in our head but we need to bring that into practice and apply it practically. We need the guidance of our best coach the Holy Spirit to help us turn our mess into a message.
Pastor Priji: Amen Amen, absolutely! Thank you so much, Pastor Kim and Pastor Derrick. Thank you so much for giving us your time and pouring your heart into this conversation. God bless you both.
For the resources of Pastor Derick & Pastor Kim:
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